tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post8289186168229090180..comments2024-02-05T15:32:56.088-08:00Comments on Listening to the Giants: C.S. Lewis—A man who believed in PurgatoryClint Lettermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01052652624821285235noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-18816172315775534012016-04-01T21:58:33.576-07:002016-04-01T21:58:33.576-07:00Personally I like his quotes. Great compilation. T...Personally I like his quotes. Great compilation. Thanks for sharing with us.C. S. Lewis quoteshttp://www.quoteschart.com/C-S-Lewis-quotesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-83284421820195472592014-12-08T20:01:22.529-08:002014-12-08T20:01:22.529-08:00The belief in purgatory is very sad, because it...The belief in purgatory is very sad, because it's source or "need to believe" is based on one's sin fooling oneself that God needs some help in his particular case OR it is the belief that Christ's work for his own was insufficient. Now this thought is satanic and perhaps blasphemous. <br />When Christ broke the technical Law by "hanging on a tree and the sin of his elect was poured onto him, he, at the end of His suffering yelled out "It is finished" and the darkness came and the temple curtain was torn in two. Now I am not brilliant, but I know what these things mean. Immediately after the first sin God promised a redeemer for a very large problem. That we did in fact know good and evil. That as Paul insists some six times, that we are so depraved that if you say to a new Gentile Christian or anyone for that matter you may never do any of these four commands that the subconscious mind for many people cannot receive it. They will touch the wet paint "do not touch" signs every time. Why did Eve HAVE to take that one piece of fruit? Because God told her not to. There probably was an entire orchard there. James in v19 says in effect that the Gentiles were good to go. But he fibbed. Is that passive aggressive or what? "Therefore it is my judgment that we not trouble the Gentiles who are turning to God from among the Gentiles. Note the PERIOD! oh but here it comes, for there was never a law that James didn't like. So he throws out four more- you know the Gentiles are oversexed fools and they need "help" . I have been studying this for 8 months and I believe that the "Judaizers love doing the Law and now with Jesus being a messiah of sorts from my readings Yeshua was their new found back up if they missed the mark.Which is pretty much the summary of American "Christianity". I will give you just one universal assumption re James that may be wrong. We know the "tough" side of Jesus. How do we know that when Jesus and James met it went the way we think it went. Read James and how much he talks about his brother. That after Christ made it perfectly clear that the sins of his Church were covered in full proven by defeating death in His resurrection. Sola fide it would not even be an issue if it weren't for this Epistle. Now it is preached 1 out of 3 RC and Protestants denying the reformers and the Scotch Irish warriors. Purgatory again, defines either that the "believer" thinks he needs to help God push him to the top or doesn't believe Jesus Christ got the job done even in light of "IT IS FINISHED. When one reads James please realize that he was very smart and took advantage of the debate between works or faith. Enough to make me nauseous, his favorite "proof" was "you have faith, and I have works show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works. Can anyone tell me what James' works were? That he went up daily to the holy of holies and rocked back and forth praying on his knees creating "mushroom" knees? There are no reported miracles while Peter, Barnabas and Paul his subordinates preached about the miracles they were doing. In the beginning of Acts the believers believed and were baptized. How can it be that Tolkein and Lewis were either sucked in or very close to the Roman Catholic Church where they order you to follow the prescription for purgatory or worse. I<br />don't get it. It is Finished!! No Help Needed.duff gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11326154076874371975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-40902124353620850172013-05-23T21:05:28.249-07:002013-05-23T21:05:28.249-07:00"There is not one explicit (or implicit) vers...<i>"There is not one explicit (or implicit) verse advocating the concept of purgatory."</i><br /><br />As to possible intimation of purgatory in scripture, there's the 3 men in Luke 12 (I think its Luke 12) where Jesus speaks of one cut in half and given his portion with the hypocrites, one beaten with many stripes, one beaten with few stripes. It seems the latter 2 both are saved, but have to undergo punishment before going to heaven, while the first goes to hell. Also Paul speaks to the saved saying "we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to receive the things done in the body, whether good or bad"...punishment for the saved? after this life but before they enter heaven? sounds like a sort of 'purgatory'. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372463300223880001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-57410972662204405972013-05-23T21:01:50.186-07:002013-05-23T21:01:50.186-07:00"The concept of Purgatory (i.e. the satisfact..."The concept of Purgatory (i.e. the satisfaction model) requires justification by works."<br /><br />You can't substantiate this statement, because it isn't true. Traditionally the concept of purgatory only included the believer: the believer is justified by faith, and hence will make it to heaven, but they can't go until they are sanctified in purgatory. Hence, the reason they even get to go to purgatory is because they were justified by faith! Duh! They are already justified, but before they get to make it all the way to heaven the process of sanctification must be completed. Now, I'm not saying I agree with that model: I'm just saying your statement is unjustifiable and that you are just regurgitating what you've heard over knee-jerk protestants say, not thinking through the issue logically.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372463300223880001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-50233573861604370362013-02-28T13:53:30.315-08:002013-02-28T13:53:30.315-08:00We can see further reference to this idea of purga...We can see further reference to this idea of purgatory in 1 Corinthians 15:29 "Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" What on earth could this verse mean, other than it is beneficial to pray for the dead and their purification?<br /><br />One final verse that I like to point out is often used to support the doctrine of the Communion of Saints, but I think there is some application here as well. Hebrews 12:22-24 states:<br /><br /> But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.<br /><br />How were these spirits of the righteous made perfect? Through God's purifying love, through the refiner's fire, through the state of being that is purgatory. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422690464173134144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-27921990835526984782013-02-28T13:51:49.573-08:002013-02-28T13:51:49.573-08:00First, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 which reads as foll...First, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 which reads as follows:<br /><br /> By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.<br /><br />I have yet to see a Protestant explanation of these verses. How under the idea of Sola Fide can one be saved but only as escaping through the flames while suffering loss? The only explanation for what St. Paul writes here is an understanding of Purgatory. You see if what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward, if it is burned up, he will still be saved but will be purified prior to receiving his reward in heaven. Of course this does not mean a literal fire, God's love is often referred to as a fire, this is a metaphor for the sanctification process. Many protestants know the praise song, Refiner's Fire, and this is that same sort of fire. <br /><br />Another verse is Matthew 12:32<br /><br /> And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.<br /><br />Jesus explicitly states in this verse that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME. If there was no purification of sins after death, no further reconciliation with God after we die, then there would be no need to say that the sins would not be forgiven now or then. Jesus would have simply said that person's sins would not be forgiven, period. This opinion was held by many of the "men of old" including; St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.<br /><br />The parable of Luke 16 is another good example describing a waiting place for righteous men to be made perfect in Christ, known as Abraham's bosom.<br /><br />"...the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame." <br /><br /><br /><br />The righteous men of old were waiting here for Christ to open heaven by his atoning work on the cross. Once that happened as is stated in 1 Peter 3:19-20 "he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." This verse certainly alludes to the fact that there is a possibility of more than just God's presence or hell. It supports the possibility and likeliness of a third place, where one, even the righteous men of old in this case, can wait to be made perfect for God's presence.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422690464173134144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-4663089754066658022013-02-28T07:54:19.226-08:002013-02-28T07:54:19.226-08:00Pl please take a look at my blog post regarding th...Pl please take a look at my blog post regarding this. I detailed many passages from the Protestant canon and would love to answer specific questions regarding those passages. I would live to discuss further. Feel free to comment here or on my blog. Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422690464173134144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-60581977055668101242013-02-27T21:15:18.695-08:002013-02-27T21:15:18.695-08:00Friend,
Also, I would love your feedback on this...Friend, <br /><br />Also, I would love your feedback on this post. <br /><br />http://cpletter.blogspot.com/2012/05/john-wycliffea-man-who-was-roman.html (my post on John Wycliffe) <br /><br />God bless.Clint Lettermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01052652624821285235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-12428610715742820942013-02-27T21:10:43.942-08:002013-02-27T21:10:43.942-08:00Friend,
You said Purgatory is biblical. Please s...Friend, <br /><br />You said Purgatory is biblical. Please show me some texts from the Protestant canon. God bless. Clint Lettermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01052652624821285235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-63919309294114824832013-02-27T19:07:53.148-08:002013-02-27T19:07:53.148-08:00Here are the first 4,000 characters of 23,000 (my ...Here are the first 4,000 characters of 23,000 (my comment turned into a thesis!)<br /><br />CS Lewis Believed in Purgatory - Rightly So<br />This post is in response to a recent blog posting I found while searching the Internet for some CS Lewis quotes. The full blog post can be seen here:<br /><br />Listening to the Giants- CS Lewis a man who believed in Purgatory<br /><br />There are many quotes of CS Lewis' that affirm a belief in Purgatory, many of which are listed in the blog post. Of course this falls into reason, as CS Lewis was an Anglican, and returned to the Anglican Church through the Evangelization efforts of his Oxford friend J.R.R. Tolkien and reading G.K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man. Both Tolkien and Chesterton were Catholic.<br /><br />Lewis' most notorious quote regarding Purgatory probably comes from The Great Divorce in which he states;<br /><br /><br />“Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.” “It may hurt, you know”—even so, sir.”<br /><br /><br />The first mischaracterization I find in this post is as follows:<br /><br /><br />"Some would say C.S. Lewis believed in the (recently popularized) sanctification (i.e. cleansing) model of Purgatory, rather than the classic model of satisfaction (i.e. punishment for your sins).<br />But if you are like me you are wondering, "What is the sanctification model of Purgatory?" <br />Basically, it is the idea that Purgatory is necessary to make the Christian fully or completely sanctified before you enter Heaven."<br /><br />What are these "models"? Throughout the post it is referred to as the sanctification model is the Protestant model, and the satisfaction model is the "traditional model", although he never says Catholic, I am quite certain that is what he means. However to say that the Catholic Church teaches currently the satisfaction model is completely false. The satisfaction model, if there is such a thing, is simply Medieval speculation on a divine reality. We do this all the time, including in trying to understand things like the Trinity. There are some things we do not know and cannot know, these types of doctrines, like the doctrine of purgatory, develop over time as our understanding of Christian Truth develops.<br /><br />So what does the Catholic Church teach about Purgatory? <br /><br />Well the Catechism of the Catholic Church section 1030 and 1031 state:<br /><br />1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.<br />1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607<br /><br />As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608<br /><br />continue reading at my blog <br /><br />http://findingthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/2013/02/cs-lewis-believed-in-purgatory-rightly.html <br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422690464173134144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-89465241233962947962013-02-27T19:02:42.623-08:002013-02-27T19:02:42.623-08:00Clint,
I have written a very lengthy blog post re...Clint,<br /><br />I have written a very lengthy blog post refuting your specific post here and offering an in depth analysis on what the doctrine of Purgatory actually is and why it is Biblical, Logical, and Historical. I would welcome any feedback. I will try to post it as a comment below, but I do not think it will allow it to be posted due to its length. <br /><br />http://findingthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/2013/02/cs-lewis-believed-in-purgatory-rightly.html<br /><br />God Bless,<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422690464173134144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-22291496207208087532013-01-08T15:53:09.771-08:002013-01-08T15:53:09.771-08:00Chris,
I get where you are coming from. But my p...Chris, <br /><br />I get where you are coming from. But my position is summed up well in this article. I would enjoy further interaction with you. http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAL400.pdf<br /><br />Take care. <br /><br />Clint Clint Lettermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01052652624821285235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-55142226187101582642013-01-06T19:24:24.922-08:002013-01-06T19:24:24.922-08:00My name is Chris Nelson, I just did not know how e...My name is Chris Nelson, I just did not know how else to go about that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-30566890236616246182013-01-06T19:23:30.672-08:002013-01-06T19:23:30.672-08:00I was about to share this but then you said "...I was about to share this but then you said "C.S. Lewis is one of the greatest storytellers and apologists ever to walk the face of the earth. Christians should not hesitate to read his works over and over again." This is only one of the aberrant, heretical teachings of Lewis. He also denied Penal Substitutionary Atonement, he was an inclusivist/universalist- both per Mere Christianity. He was also Marcionistic in his understanding of scripture and a theistic evolutionist. I know I may be missing some of his heretical leanings but in no way can I advocate his books!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-43772983626355455872012-10-07T14:48:45.241-07:002012-10-07T14:48:45.241-07:00Matt,
It is fascinating the differences, both ec...Matt, <br /><br />It is fascinating the differences, both ecumenically and theologically, between Pope Benedict and John Paul II. Much of this blog post came from my interaction with the book, Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation by Jerry L. Walls. His chapter of C.S. Lewis and Purgatory is the reason I read it. Walls also mentions Pope Benedict throughout his book. Clint Lettermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01052652624821285235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-54611086417076163782012-10-07T14:40:47.491-07:002012-10-07T14:40:47.491-07:00Good read bro. I tell people all the time that...Good read bro. I tell people all the time that's CS Lewis is a brilliant writer to read, but he is still not the Word of God. Like all great men we should appreciate his work but not take it all as law. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554928980868507590.post-84517519101574001282012-10-07T14:22:54.045-07:002012-10-07T14:22:54.045-07:00Great read! as i was reading, I thought of the Pop...Great read! as i was reading, I thought of the Pope Benedict who said this: “All NT and theological talk about hell has but one point: to bring man to come to grips with his life in view of the real possibility of eternal ruin and to understand revelation as a demand of the utmost seriousness. The fundamental reference to this redemptive meaning of the dogma must therefore serve as both a boundary marker and an internal guideline for all speculation in this area.”Matt Farlowhttps://twitter.com/drmatthewfarlownoreply@blogger.com